Listen to American Hunting Lease Association’s Chief Operating Officer, Sean Ferbrache talk about all things hunting lease on the Farm 4 Profit podcast.
00;00;02;20 – 00;00;22;14
Speaker 1
All right. Our guest today is going to share a unique perspective on a way that recreation can meet agriculture. And it happens more often than we think as far as recreation meeting agriculture. But we also have a lot of our listeners involved in this side of recreation.
00;00;22;15 – 00;00;35;20
Speaker 1
We’re talking hunting. So pleased to have Sean for Abrash here. He’s the chief operating officer at the American Hunting Lease Association. But I’m going to let you tell let him tell you a little bit more about what he does.
00;00;35;21 – 00;00;36;26
Speaker 1
Welcome to the podcast, Shane.
00;00;37;16 – 00;00;41;26
Speaker 2
Well, thank you, Taylor. I appreciate it. I appreciate you asking to have me today. It’s always a pleasure.
00;00;42;04 – 00;00;44;13
Speaker 1
Yeah. So what do you got going on down there? What do you do for a day?
00;00;45;07 – 00;01;04;04
Speaker 2
Well, I spend most of my days and most of my time speaking with landowners and hunters about how they can arrange a hunting lease or a way to access private property that makes the landowners little money and gives hunters access to property they probably wouldn’t have otherwise.
00;01;04;05 – 00;01;20;07
Speaker 2
So it’s kind of a win win for everybody. And we’ve been in business now since 2010. And yeah, we’ve become, I daresay, one of the thought leaders in this space. So we get a lot of folks looking towards us or for us to to just kind of guide them through this.
00;01;20;07 – 00;01;29;21
Speaker 2
Like what? You know, it’s we’re talking with landowners that own considerable amount of land in some cases, and that’s a lot of assets. And they want to make sure if they’re going to allow access, that they do it right.
00;01;29;21 – 00;01;31;07
Speaker 2
And that’s where we can help them.
00;01;31;16 – 00;01;44;29
Speaker 1
So yeah, we’re Farm For Profit podcast and our listeners listen to us because they are always looking for ways to increase profitability and that might be by use utilizing or putting to use underutilized assets such as is ground that could be used for hunting.
00;01;44;29 – 00;01;54;15
Speaker 1
So the company that you’re talking about is called base camp leasing. So what what essentially does base camp do? For our listeners.
00;01;55;10 – 00;02;13;15
Speaker 2
So basically policing is a hunting lease broker started by a gentleman named Steve Manning back in 2000, moved to Indiana from Kansas, didn’t have a place to hunt, decided to take the model really from Texas and Louisiana that’s been around for nearly a hundred years and just kind of bring it to the Midwest.
00;02;13;24 – 00;02;30;15
Speaker 2
So what Basecamp leasing does is they go to landowners and they try and secure property and land that the landowners have into their program. They have 65, 70,000 hunters and their pool that are looking for a place to hunt.
00;02;31;00 – 00;02;43;21
Speaker 2
What Basecamp does is though, they’re a service company, so they will not only send a rep out to your property to kind of give it a once over to evaluate the market value for hunting and what hunters will pay.
00;02;43;28 – 00;02;56;22
Speaker 2
And, you know, we’re always asked, how much can I expect to charge or to make? Depends. You know, you guys are in Iowa, not it’s a great place to hunt. But since the state of Iowa kind of restricts hunters.
00;02;57;23 – 00;03;13;17
Speaker 2
Missouri is a better place. The property values just a little higher for leasing in Missouri because the tags are over the counter. I can come from Indiana hunt there. So what Basecamp will do is they’ll come out, they’ll take pictures, they’ll evaluate your property, they’ll sit down with the landowners and explain to them exactly how this works
00;03;13;17 – 00;03;29;04
Speaker 2
, what they should expect, and then, of course, what kind of revenue they can generate. They also provide a $5 million liability policy that protects the landowners from any kind of liability. That’s a huge component. And then they do all the legwork.
00;03;29;05 – 00;03;46;25
Speaker 2
They have a contract that’s been reviewed by attorneys for over 20 years and approved. So they have an ironclad contract that favors the landowner probably a little bit, but is also very favorable to a hunter. So they’re just the gold standard when it comes to hunting lease brokers and actually finding a place to hunt.
00;03;47;03 – 00;04;04;11
Speaker 1
Yeah. So this is all encompassing. I mean, I knew what to expect, but that’s a full package. So if if a listener wants to go about this without having much knowledge at all base camps, the company that can help take you from start all the way through finish and continue to build multi-year relationships.
00;04;05;11 – 00;04;16;15
Speaker 2
Absolutely. Like I said, they’re just the gold standard. So and they’re a service group. So, you know, they’re not just going to sign up a landowner and say, well, there you go, you’re on your own. They all they’re really work with landowners.
00;04;16;23 – 00;04;32;12
Speaker 2
One of the things I don’t think they realize was when they when you lease what’s called a traditional lease, you’re not leasing the land. There is no promise of tenancy or anything past accessing your land. So you’re really just leasing hunting rights or access.
00;04;32;13 – 00;04;45;10
Speaker 2
Right. So you’re giving up no rights, you know, whatsoever. So they’ll do a nice job. Sometimes the landowners say, Hey, I need to log this 20 acres or I’m going to take this particular wood line out. That’s not a problem.
00;04;45;11 – 00;05;00;20
Speaker 2
They go back to base camp. Base camp can readjust, make sure the hunters are aware and then make any adjustments on the fly. So they’re they’re a full service group. And, you know, when I first started here, the I was asked by my friends, there’s a whole industry around hunting and hunting leases.
00;05;00;27 – 00;05;14;12
Speaker 2
Yeah, there really is. And, you know, there’s tens of thousands of landowners taking part in this. Hundreds of thousands of hunters. So it’s it’s it’s buttoned up industry for sure. And like I said, base camp just at the forefront.
00;05;15;11 – 00;05;19;01
Speaker 1
That my mind is just exploding right now with more questions.
00;05;19;20 – 00;05;20;18
Speaker 2
But I am all me.
00;05;20;18 – 00;05;38;27
Speaker 1
I don’t want to skip over one thing that you mentioned earlier, and that was liability coverage. So yeah, I’m such narrow track mind as we recorded this podcast, I didn’t think about that as being an essential. But when you’re talking a group of hunters and they’re on your property, that’s probably really important to the landowner to make
00;05;38;27 – 00;05;40;10
Speaker 1
sure that they’re covered and protected.
00;05;41;15 – 00;06;00;26
Speaker 2
Of course it is. And, you know, as a hunter, I feel like I have to say hunting is one of the safer recreational activities we have. It’s proven. But if you’re a landowner and you’re charging a fee, you’re accepting payment for access that throws you into a bit of a different level of responsibility.
00;06;00;26 – 00;06;10;29
Speaker 2
And so, you know, and again, either American hunting or base camp can walk a landowner through. Here’s what you should do, take a ride around your property. If you’re an absentee landowner, have somebody take a look around it.
00;06;11;06 – 00;06;30;03
Speaker 2
Let’s market, let’s post it. Let’s make maps, because we want it to be as safe as possible, obviously. Right. But you don’t want anybody out there accidentally injuring themselves or frankly, creating any kind of property damage accidentally, which we’ve had irrigation pumps and equipment accidentally shot.
00;06;30;25 – 00;06;46;10
Speaker 2
And so the landowner has some recourse. The liability policy goes both ways. It protects the landowner and the hunters. So any type of property damage or personal injury caused to the other accidentally is a reason to file a claim.
00;06;46;22 – 00;07;01;26
Speaker 1
Right. Absolutely. Well, that’s good. That’s good to know that there are protections in place. I mean, you’d like to trust everybody, but just like you said, you fall into a different category. When money exchanges hands, it becomes more of a business relationship.
00;07;01;26 – 00;07;12;05
Speaker 1
And we want our listeners to be protected. But if I’ve got a listener that’s interested in this, where where is base camp operating out of? Do you cover all the states or is it kind of a limited territory?
00;07;12;23 – 00;07;34;29
Speaker 2
Well, base camps in 25 states, I believe now, because about 30 different agents in the country, mostly in the Midwest, really starting to expand into the South, New York, Maryland, big states for base camp. So it’s it’s really an expanding company, just, I think, based on the reputation and what they offer.
00;07;34;29 – 00;07;52;16
Speaker 2
So, you know, one of the things I think when you talk about you want to trust people, of course you do. And you could typically you can trust folks. But and the other thing is a lot of landowners, farmers in particular, they’ll they’ll either work on a handshake because they’re generous, caring people, or they will have somebody
00;07;52;16 – 00;08;13;03
Speaker 2
sign a quick waiver. The problem with the waiver and I would encourage everybody to sign a waiver in addition to contracts, because it’s just another level of protection. But your wife didn’t sign that waiver. And if there is some sort of catastrophe that happens and it’s rare, but they do happen where your left or the hunter is
00;08;13;03 – 00;08;27;25
Speaker 2
left unable to provide for their family. And now, you know, the wife is faced with trying to raise a family. And that might not be, you know, sufficient for her. Then she’s well within her rights to file a lawsuit, typically.
00;08;27;27 – 00;08;42;24
Speaker 2
Now, honestly, the injuries we see are almost always somebody falling out of a tree stand that they hung. So there’s nobody to blame. They’re there except for themselves. So there is no liability there. One thing about liability coverage I tell everybody is it never pays you.
00;08;43;08 – 00;08;46;25
Speaker 2
It pays somebody else on your behalf. That’s what it’s for.
00;08;47;10 – 00;09;00;25
Speaker 1
Yeah, that’s right. So any of our listeners with land can participate. But kind of like you said, a lot of our listeners work on handshake. So do they get the opportunity to actually meet the hunters that are on the opposite end of the lease?
00;09;01;20 – 00;09;17;13
Speaker 2
They can they can ask they can ask base camp as a stipulation. Typically, base camp doesn’t do that. They’ve got a pool of hunters and they just match the hunters with the landowners. But absolutely, if a landowner said, I want to meet the the hunters prior to that, that can all be worked out.
00;09;17;21 – 00;09;29;19
Speaker 2
And you asked me a little bit to go where they can go. It’s base camp leasing becomes very simple. And if you want just some generic information on leasing in general, you can go to a hunting lease dot org, which is where the American hunting lease lives.
00;09;30;01 – 00;09;42;12
Speaker 1
Oh yeah, that would be helpful. So when you get started, if they go out there and they venture into getting locked up, is there a cost to the landowner? Is there a fee to get started? If I own land and want to work with base camp.
00;09;43;01 – 00;09;56;24
Speaker 2
There is absolutely no fee. All they need to do is contact reach out through base camp, precinct com or call them on the phone. It’s another thing that’s fantastic about them is they will answer the phone. They’re in Indiana, they’ll answer the phone and they will talk to you upfront.
00;09;56;27 – 00;10;06;15
Speaker 2
They’ll get an agent scheduled to come out and have a look or they’ll actually have the agent reach out to the landowner directly and they’ll schedule time to come out and walk the property. And if the landowner wants to walk with him, that’d be great.
00;10;06;25 – 00;10;18;15
Speaker 2
And then, like I said earlier, they’ll sit down, they’ll go over everything, but there is no cost. They have a they take a commission once. Leases. And that’s it. It’s a it’s extremely simple.
00;10;18;29 – 00;10;32;22
Speaker 1
It does. It sounds like it is. Now, let’s get into some of the nitty gritty here. Just some some quick one off questions that I already got when I floated this around to a couple listeners. But, uh, who’s responsible for listing the property?
00;10;32;23 – 00;10;40;13
Speaker 1
So if you come out, walk, I don’t have to do anything. Correct. You take the photos, you do everything that’s necessary to be posted out there for the hunter pool to look at it.
00;10;41;25 – 00;10;57;06
Speaker 2
Exactly. So there’s they list the base camp leasing. We’ll list your property for you. They’ve got certain levels of membership that have first look at new leases. And frankly, it’s pretty rare that the good lease goes any further than that.
00;10;57;19 – 00;11;12;01
Speaker 2
It’s usually it’s funny, they go out to the wall hanger members Monday, Wednesdays and Fridays, which I am a wall hanger member. And I know by the time I get on 15, 20 minutes after the email went out, most of the time a good one’s already gone.
00;11;12;06 – 00;11;17;07
Speaker 1
So you’re you’re kind of at a supply and demand here, too, where the supply is low and the demand is high.
00;11;17;25 – 00;11;31;24
Speaker 2
The supply is almost nonexistent and the demand is off the chart. You know, COVID 19 had a lot to do with the increase in Hunter numbers. Supply and demand was a little out of whack before the pandemic, and now it’s even more so.
00;11;31;24 – 00;11;50;28
Speaker 2
I read that I think there was like 11, 11 million hunters in 2016. The U.S. Division of Fish and Wildlife does a report every five years. They did one in 21, but we haven’t seen it yet. And I think there were 39 million licenses sold in the country in 21.
00;11;51;14 – 00;12;08;23
Speaker 2
Some of that’s a duplicate. But the the average or the estimate is that it’s going to be up somewhere in the 15 to 20% range of new hunters entering the sport, and they need a place to hunt. So if you are a land owner and you have that kind of supply, there’s frankly just never been a better
00;12;08;23 – 00;12;12;14
Speaker 2
time to get maximum value for your land than there is right now.
00;12;12;15 – 00;12;23;24
Speaker 1
Right. And being farmed for profit. And the whole reason we put this episode together is to find alternative income sources for underutilized assets. And that sounds like this could be a really good fit. But now I’m going to try and relate.
00;12;23;25 – 00;12;32;11
Speaker 1
I’m relating this to like a rental house. If I lease out a house, I no longer have access to the house. Is that the same way it goes for my ground?
00;12;32;28 – 00;12;51;10
Speaker 2
Absolutely not. Absolutely not. That that’s why I mentioned a little bit ago you’re only leasing out the recreational access or rights to your property. You you are a farmer, you’re a landowner, and you have full right to do everything you need to do for that land, whether it’s I need to put cattle out in that pasture, I
00;12;51;10 – 00;13;05;10
Speaker 2
need to remove that woods, I need to cut firewood. Anything you need to do is you’re absolutely welcome and free to do that. You just have to know that you want your customers or your guests or your lessees to come back year after year.
00;13;06;03 – 00;13;17;18
Speaker 2
And so you want to make sure you provide a good experience for them. So, you know, let’s say you have a family reunion at your farm and you have people out and they’re, you know, they’re riding ATVs or they’re doing whatever it is they do.
00;13;17;27 – 00;13;29;01
Speaker 2
If you could have that family reunion in the summer and not in October, that would be that would be very welcome. You ought to buy a hunter. So there’s there’s things you can do and there’s a balance. But directly answer your question.
00;13;29;09 – 00;13;33;14
Speaker 2
You lose absolutely no rights when you lease access to your property.
00;13;34;07 – 00;13;51;06
Speaker 1
Okay. So if I end up making a connection some other way or my land sells, is this barring me from terminating a lease? How do I end the relationship with base camp if if something in my life comes up to where it just needs to be time to be done?
00;13;52;06 – 00;14;04;22
Speaker 2
Well, I know there’s a I think there’s a 30 or 60 day notice when you just want to end the lease there. There are a year long lease. So the leases they do or they’re traditional there for one full year, people do sell.
00;14;04;22 – 00;14;19;07
Speaker 2
Boy, the last couple of years, the real estate market has been crazy. I have lost my lease in Kentucky, but the landowner you just call base camp, you talk to base camp, and they will facilitate or negotiate kind of a peaceful resolution sometimes.
00;14;19;12 – 00;14;32;24
Speaker 2
You know, they take a look at like how long was the lease in place? Did it go through deer season, which is 98% of the leases? And they’ll talk to both. They’ll they’ll help you negotiate that that exit from the program.
00;14;32;29 – 00;14;44;26
Speaker 2
And it’s typically always very amicable. And you know they want to keep customers on both sides. They hope as a landowner you see their value and that you come back. And as hunters, we want you to hunt with us somewhere.
00;14;44;26 – 00;14;56;22
Speaker 2
So, you know, what can we work out? And like I said, it’s almost always amicable after the initial blast of, hey, you can’t hunt there anymore. And I’ve I have felt that heartache and it kick in the gut.
00;14;56;22 – 00;15;00;15
Speaker 2
And, you know, it was two years ago and I’m already off to a better place.
00;15;00;23 – 00;15;11;18
Speaker 1
I totally get it. I do. Before I switch over to what it’s like on the experience side for a hunter, what is there anything that we missed to the landowner that you’d like to share about base camp?
00;15;13;13 – 00;15;24;28
Speaker 2
Well, I don’t think so. I think we really covered it. There are with the advent of social media, there are on Facebook, there are some some guys doing a little bit of their on their own type thing. I would just be leery.
00;15;24;28 – 00;15;38;23
Speaker 2
The two things that you have to have are you have to have a liability policy in place and you have to have a tried and true contract. Other than that, you know, there are other avenues. But I just always come back to to base camp.
00;15;38;23 – 00;15;46;06
Speaker 2
Even as a hunter, I go through base camp because I just know everything’s taken care of and I can hunt safely and responsibly wherever I choose.
00;15;46;15 – 00;15;53;02
Speaker 1
So can you give us any type of a ballpark range as to what a lease would be worth to the landowner?
00;15;54;04 – 00;16;10;01
Speaker 2
Sure. Let’s just I’ll let me be kind of general as far as the Midwest goes. Missouri, Indiana, Ohio, Illinois, Kentucky, Tennessee. It’s probably pretty much everywhere on quality habitat. And the farmer knows there are no experts like the farmers.
00;16;10;02 – 00;16;22;03
Speaker 2
They see the deer. I always tell the hunters, I’m always like, Hey, don’t forget to visit the farmer while you’re out there because he’s the person. He’ll say, Oh, you should see this giant, you know, 150 that comes out over here under this oak tree.
00;16;22;24 – 00;16;35;13
Speaker 2
That’s where I’m a go. You’re there getting as much as $50 an acre right now on Hannibal ground. If you own 200 acres and there’s two acres of woods on it. Right, you’re not going to get 50 times all of it.
00;16;35;13 – 00;16;50;01
Speaker 2
You know, so but if you’ve got quality habitat with some diversity, you can get anywhere between really 30 and $50 an acre. 50 on the high and 30 on the low end. Depends on the county, the state, you know, all that kind of stuff.
00;16;50;02 – 00;17;00;20
Speaker 2
So and the history, I mean, if you’ve got pictures of some of the bucks have been taken off of your property, that’s that’s just helps them and even more so. So yeah, it can be significant revenue.
00;17;00;28 – 00;17;16;19
Speaker 1
Yeah. No, it sounds like it. So. Now let’s switch to the Hunter side because I know we’ve got listeners that also enjoy the recreation side. What’s that like? What’s the experience like? If someone wants to go out to base camp and start getting on the waiting list is what it sounds like.
00;17;17;03 – 00;17;33;06
Speaker 2
Well, the first thing yeah, the first thing I would do is I would join the Wall Hangers Club. I think it’s $200 a year, something along those lines. And then you get first look when that when they sign up new leases, new landowners, they put them out every Monday, Wednesday and Friday and you get first look at
00;17;33;06 – 00;17;48;22
Speaker 2
them, you have the exact same chance, the opportunity that everybody else does. So you have to know the area you’re looking for, like say I’m looking for Indiana, Southern half hundred acres or more. I look at that every time it comes out and when I see one come down, I take a look at it.
00;17;48;22 – 00;17;59;27
Speaker 2
So that’s what I would suggest. But it’s a free site as well. You can go there right now and you can look at all of the leases they have. Even the ones that are leased are typically listed without the price and without the location.
00;18;00;11 – 00;18;19;12
Speaker 2
So yeah, I think they have allowed me to I’m a city guy, I’m a retired Indianapolis fireman, and so I born and raised in the city. I don’t have family that owns land. The prospect of me owning a couple of hundred acres, especially in this market, is really zero.
00;18;19;12 – 00;18;36;14
Speaker 2
And with the the idea of leasing access, I’ll never consider owning that kind of a chunk of ground because for six, $7,000, split four or five ways with my friends that also hunt, we can hunt some of the best habitat in this country.
00;18;37;04 – 00;18;47;18
Speaker 2
I know when I go there with my grandson, nobody else is going to be in my tree stand. Nobody else is going to be there. We can hang and when you least you lease for a full year. So it’s not just deer season.
00;18;47;28 – 00;18;58;22
Speaker 2
You can hang cameras, you can put out mineral licks, you can you can shed, you can turkey. You know, it’s a recreational lease that allows you to use that property like it was your own for a full year.
00;18;59;02 – 00;19;10;07
Speaker 2
And we were just talking this morning, I’m getting ready to put up a a box blind for the first time ever, but I’m looking forward to it. I talked to my landowner. I said, Do you mind? He said, Absolutely not.
00;19;10;13 – 00;19;13;02
Speaker 2
He even said, If you guys want park your camper out there in camp, you can.
00;19;13;15 – 00;19;14;03
Speaker 1
Oh, that’s cool.
00;19;14;03 – 00;19;25;18
Speaker 2
I thought I thought we were going to do that until I got out there and saw where we would park it. I was like, Oh, this is the hub of the whole property. So no, we’ll stay off. But yeah, it’s just, you know, and he and I have become friends and so it’s, it’s, it’s just a win
00;19;25;18 – 00;19;30;09
Speaker 2
all around and it allows me to hunt property that I would never be able to hunt.
00;19;30;17 – 00;19;42;11
Speaker 1
So that sparked another question you just mentioned, friends. So is there a way to use base camp leasing to make sure all the ducks are in order if a landowner already has connected with a hunter?
00;19;44;04 – 00;19;54;22
Speaker 2
Yes. Yeah. You can contact base camp leasing. I think there are rare instances where a landowner might say, hey, listen, my nephew is already hunting here. I don’t want to kick him off. He’s going to bring three friends.
00;19;55;00 – 00;20;02;03
Speaker 2
What can we work out? I think and I don’t speak for the guys at base camp, but I’m fairly certain that they can they can work something like that out with you.
00;20;02;12 – 00;20;14;01
Speaker 1
Awesome. That’s great. Well, if you don’t have anything else to add, I’d like for you to close out with contact information. How people can get a hold of base camp where the best place to get started is at.
00;20;15;12 – 00;20;27;21
Speaker 2
Yeah, the best. The first thing I would do is go to base camp leasing dot com since I’m talking to mostly land. There is a landowner portal and a landowner page will explain their entire program. And then if it just piques your interest a little bit, just give them a call.
00;20;27;22 – 00;20;37;13
Speaker 2
You can speak to any of the of the ladies that’ll answer the phone. They can answer all your questions. If you’d like to speak with one of the managers you could even ask for for one of the managers, they would help you out as well.
00;20;37;18 – 00;20;50;13
Speaker 2
I don’t know their phone number off the top of my head. If you want just information generally on leasing and on how it works, you can reach out to us. It’s a hunting lease dot org. Our American Hunting Lease Association.
00;20;50;14 – 00;20;55;07
Speaker 2
8667826330. Now and I do know.
00;20;55;17 – 00;21;10;00
Speaker 1
Awesome and I will stick the phone numbers in the show notes for you listeners so you don’t have to jot them down right now while you’re on the road. We will have those and have access. But Sean Ferber, I appreciate you joining us and sharing with the listeners here on Farm for profit another way that they might
00;21;10;00 – 00;21;11;24
Speaker 1
be able to put their land to work for them.
00;21;12;29 – 00;21;23;03
Speaker 2
Hey, I appreciate it. I really like the podcast. I listened to it a couple of times now since we since we hooked up and it’s it’s it’s nice. I think a lot of folks probably shortchange farmers that they’re actually businesspeople.
00;21;23;13 – 00;21;35;10
Speaker 2
And because they get their hands dirty doesn’t mean they don’t understand ROI and alternative revenue streams and operational costs and all those things. So, you know, this is a way we can bring everybody together and kind of educate everyone at the same time and make some money.
00;21;35;16 – 00;21;48;11
Speaker 1
Absolutely. We catch that firsthand knowing that this was one of the topics that they requested. There is certainly business mindset behind each one of these farmers, especially those that are successful. But Sean, thanks again for joining us. We hope you have a good one.
00;21;48;29 – 00;21;50;10
Speaker 2
Great thanks to you and I appreciate it.
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