Transcription
00:00:10:14 – 00:00:24:05
Speaker 1
Good deal. Well, listen, special guest today. We’ve done this a handful of times now with great success. It seems to me, Joel, that when we have a guest, are podcasting better? I don’t know. We get a lot more views and a lot more interaction.
00:00:24:05 – 00:00:36:18
Speaker 1
Engagement when it’s not me and you talking. Yeah, 100%. We have somebody as interesting. So today we have a friend of ours, friend of the American Hunting Associations, going back several years to his days with the Sportsmen’s Alliance.
00:00:36:18 – 00:00:44:12
Speaker 1
He’s now the president and CEO of the National Deer Alliance. Today with us is Mr. Nick Pensato. And I’m I’m saying that right. Is that right?
00:00:45:11 – 00:00:46:04
Speaker 2
Yeah, that’s.
00:00:46:04 – 00:00:46:14
Speaker 1
What I thought.
00:00:46:17 – 00:00:47:16
Speaker 2
You nailed it. Yeah.
00:00:47:18 – 00:00:51:03
Speaker 1
Fantastic. Well, thanks, Nick, for joining us. We really appreciate your time.
00:00:52:04 – 00:01:05:00
Speaker 2
No, I appreciate being here. And now all of a sudden, I’m unnerved because you you’ve said that your shows are better with guests and now all of a sudden, the bars can rate. So you suckered me in, and then you put me in a position to succeed or not.
00:01:05:00 – 00:01:05:23
Speaker 2
So we’ll see how it goes.
00:01:05:23 – 00:01:15:16
Speaker 1
You will deliver. I’m confident. Confident in you. Hey, if you don’t mind, I you know, before we get into some of the stuff we want to talk about, can you just kind of give me the quick Nick Penn risotto story?
00:01:15:16 – 00:01:26:08
Speaker 1
Just, you know, where are you from? Where you where you live in now? How you got to where you are? I mean, I think people really like to see that kind of behind the scenes stuff or just kind of get to know you a little bit before we get into the big stuff.
00:01:27:01 – 00:01:46:01
Speaker 2
Sure. Yeah. And this always ends up being the most difficult question, actually. So, yeah, I grew up here, so I run the National Beer Alliance presidency of the National Beer Alliance. And it’s I guess it’s fitting that I ended up in this role because I grew up in western Pennsylvania, rural western Pennsylvania, as a as a deer
00:01:46:01 – 00:02:00:20
Speaker 2
hunter. Even for a while before I was old enough to hunt, I thought I was a deer hunter and wanted to be a deer hunter and loved deer. And I just grew up thinking that everybody hunted because where I lived, everybody did hunt all the neighbors, their sons, their daughters.
00:02:00:20 – 00:02:13:01
Speaker 2
And it was just it’s what everybody did. It wasn’t until I got a little bit older and got out to see the rest of the world, that I realized that we’re actually less than 5% of the population. So that was a bit of an eye opener for me.
00:02:13:01 – 00:02:32:03
Speaker 2
But at any rate, they’re always interested in conservation in the outdoors. That’s what we have where I grew up, so that’s what we participated in, went off to college. The early part of my career I worked in, I did some agricultural work but then worked in stream and river restoration work, water quality for 11 years with an
00:02:32:03 – 00:02:50:17
Speaker 2
organization called the Western Pennsylvania Conservancy, where I ran our watershed conservation program. That was that was a lot of fun. And then I stepped over into wildlife for a time and went to I was the CEO of Delta Waterfowl Foundation, which is based in Bismarck, North Dakota.
00:02:50:17 – 00:03:10:08
Speaker 2
And also we had an office in Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada, and stayed in wildlife. Well, actually, I, I guess sporting issues in general. You mentioned I was with the Sportsmen’s Alliance where I was the president and CEO there. And the best way to summarize that is to say that we essentially fight for the rights of hunters and outdoors
00:03:10:08 – 00:03:23:09
Speaker 2
people. Fishing is not under attack quite as much as the hunting is. But as people I’m sure have noticed in recent years, there are many, many more attacks on our our hunting opportunities and ultimately ends up being attacks on wildlife.
00:03:23:09 – 00:03:37:13
Speaker 2
So I did that for a while, which was a great job, and it’s an organization that you still support and a really good people there. So if you’re not familiar with the Sportsmen’s Alliance, check them out. And then from there, that was in Columbus, Ohio.
00:03:37:19 – 00:03:50:17
Speaker 2
And from there then I had the opportunity to be the first CEO of the National Deer Alliance. And to be quite honest about it, it was just something that I had a hard time passing up, being a passionate deer person.
00:03:50:17 – 00:04:05:19
Speaker 2
And how often do you get the opportunity to start something that’s really cool and really important and it’s right up your alley in terms of personal interest and passion. So I’ve been with the Deer Alliance now for a little over four years.
00:04:06:10 – 00:04:16:13
Speaker 2
They’re actually going on four years. I’m sorry. And time is Thomas Flying Boy stuff and continuing to grow. And I moved back to where I’m from back to western Pennsylvania again.
00:04:16:22 – 00:04:26:09
Speaker 1
Outstanding. So it was important for you to be the first the first CEO and president of the NDA kind of stands out that was that put you over the top wanted to start something.
00:04:26:22 – 00:04:35:23
Speaker 2
Well it’s just I don’t think you get those opportunities. You don’t you know, it’s it’s a pretty unique thing. And yeah. So I jumped at it and I’m glad that I did.
00:04:36:16 – 00:04:47:13
Speaker 3
Nick Tell me a little bit about how the NBA got started and how that opportunity presented itself to you because, you know, you’re speaking Sean’s language. You always make your your passion, your paycheck. And it sounds like you’ve been able to do that.
00:04:47:13 – 00:04:50:19
Speaker 3
So kind of give us a background a background on the organization itself.
00:04:51:08 – 00:05:08:15
Speaker 2
Sure. So the deer lions, it ends up being an interesting story, actually. So it all started really with Quality Deer Management Association. They were doing some of their own strategic planning, trying to figure out how they could grow and looking at their mission and all these types of things.
00:05:08:15 – 00:05:23:12
Speaker 2
And they noticed that there was a. Pretty significant void when it comes to national beer policy issues. So we’re not talking the more on the ground types of things that they’re known for now in protecting younger deer and those types of things.
00:05:25:14 – 00:05:35:14
Speaker 2
But they wanted to see were some opportunities for us to maybe do more. And after a lot of thought, they ended up voting what they called the North American, I think it was called the North American White Tail Summit.
00:05:36:07 – 00:05:52:17
Speaker 2
And that was in Branson, Missouri, out of bass pro shops. And they invited I think they had about 300 people there to come in and start talking about this issue. And what ended up coming out of that was that not the AMA really needed to change who they were because so many people were just bought into what
00:05:52:17 – 00:06:08:10
Speaker 2
they do, their core mission. It was that it was really needed as an organization to be a voice for all deer and all hunters across the country, whether you’re a let them go so they can grow guy or whether you’re a stump setter guy that goes out two or three times a year, or if you’re a mule
00:06:08:10 – 00:06:31:14
Speaker 2
deer hunter, black male, ultimately we just needed a policy voice for deer because there so much policy, I tell people that anyone, any one time during the year there are probably easily 50, but probably closer to 100 different bills or pieces of legislation or potential regulations that are impacting deer or hunters right now or there as we
00:06:31:14 – 00:06:45:05
Speaker 2
talk about this. And nobody was really stewarding that and being the overarching voice and participant. So they brought in a bunch of people to form the board of directors, and they included the other major deer groups, Mule Deer Foundation and White Hills Unlimited.
00:06:45:22 – 00:07:03:10
Speaker 2
And once they got some money generated, it came time to hire somebody. And this is where the story gets a little funny. And that is I actually wrote letters of recommendation for two other candidates for this job because I was certainly happy with what I was doing at the Sportsmen’s Alliance, and I thought that this was important
00:07:03:10 – 00:07:23:02
Speaker 2
and I recommended some really good people. And ultimately they the board, you kind of come back to me and hope that I’d have an interest in it. Then after some back and forth and a lot of thought and just talking through it with family, ultimately I made the decision that that it was it was worth a go
00:07:23:07 – 00:07:35:06
Speaker 2
and it was that important. And again, just considering that these opportunities don’t come around every day, even though it was a little bit scary and risky with it being so new, I decided I was up for the challenge.
00:07:35:06 – 00:07:41:04
Speaker 2
And here we are going on four years later. And I think I think we’re all happy and I think we’re doing well. So it was a good decision.
00:07:41:08 – 00:07:53:12
Speaker 1
Yeah. I’ve been in situations like that where somebody writes a letter of recommendation or you’re talking to somebody about somebody else and it just kind of clicks. You think, Wait a minute, that guy’s pretty sharp, or the lady really had her act together.
00:07:53:12 – 00:08:04:10
Speaker 1
Let’s see if there’s a way, you know, that we can attract them so well. Good. I think we’re all, you know, better off. I know the the NDA is better off having you there. I think that’s you know, that’s certainly my opinion.
00:08:05:17 – 00:08:20:21
Speaker 1
Thank you. Yeah, absolutely. Here’s something. Just come up here. In the last week that I’ve read about, you get your kind of your your take on it. And that’s the Buffalo County, Wisconsin situation, which I find very interesting, a little puzzling.
00:08:20:21 – 00:08:42:00
Speaker 1
But for those of you who don’t know, Buffalo County has a CDC, which is a Citizens Deer Advisory Council. So they’ve actually Wisconsin went out and said county by county, let’s get the people involved in making recommendations on how we should you know, what the bag limits are, the city CDC in Buffalo County, Wisconsin.
00:08:42:00 – 00:09:00:07
Speaker 1
So Boone and Crockett list, Buffalo County is the number one buck producing state county in the country. They want to go in early only this year, those only because the deer population is too high. So they think if they just take out dogs, leave the bucks alone, that they’ll help mitigate that.
00:09:01:18 – 00:09:16:10
Speaker 1
And I’ll give you my opinion on it first is that I think it’s unfair to do that this soon. To me, it seems like you could do it. Let’s say we’re going to do this in 2020 and give the guides and the outfitters and the the hotels and the local commerce in Buffalo County, at least a year
00:09:16:10 – 00:09:19:06
Speaker 1
, 18 months to prep to say, okay, we know this is coming.
00:09:19:12 – 00:09:27:12
Speaker 3
Yeah, there’s so many periphery kind of businesses and individuals affected, but not not just the hunters and the guys. You who. Right. You take it little hang.
00:09:27:12 – 00:09:32:12
Speaker 1
In there, Nick, are you familiar with the situation? I mean, you all weigh in on that at all or what? Yeah.
00:09:32:12 – 00:09:50:01
Speaker 2
So some something that big we’re certainly going to be aware of. It was actually the main feature point in our newsletter that that went out yesterday. And we also based our survey question around it for the week. And so yeah, you guys hit the nail on the head.
00:09:50:01 – 00:10:05:02
Speaker 2
It’s not it’s not as simple as okay, from a management perspective, we need to take a lot more deer off the landscape. So we’re just going to shut down boxes and bases, right. But I think what they got was the desire, the true desired result.
00:10:05:02 – 00:10:27:07
Speaker 2
And I think the desired result was to get people’s attention. The committees, they don’t actually get to set the policy. They make the recommendation. And so, therefore, when you make a let’s just say I don’t want to outlandish is the wrong term, but let’s just a vote that is sort of eye catching and is going to get
00:10:27:07 – 00:10:41:07
Speaker 2
it’ll make a lot of noise. You can do that with the cover of knowing that it’s likely that’s never going to get implemented. But you can get the attention of people by saying, listen, we have too many deer in this county, and it’s great that this is the number one Boone in Crockett County in the country and
00:10:41:07 – 00:10:57:15
Speaker 2
known by noon by any anybody that likes to pursue older deer. Everybody knows about Buffalo County, Wisconsin. But they do have an issue with too many deer. So to your point, I think that if this were truly to be implemented, that you do have to give people notice because.
00:10:58:09 – 00:11:09:20
Speaker 2
So you’ve got outfitters that have already got hunts booked. You’ve got people who lease land up there. Maybe multi-year leases were part of their deal when they signed. That wasn’t that they might not get the hunt a buck one here.
00:11:11:09 – 00:11:23:06
Speaker 2
And so you have those types of things but and then you got youth who are coming up that are going to be new hunters. They really surely like to sell a buck tag, I would think. And then, then there’s the whole other part of it is you can’t you can’t say that we have too many deer in
00:11:23:06 – 00:11:35:00
Speaker 2
the landscape in and protect the whole section of them for a season, because now all of those bucks that we’re going to be taken off the landscape, which tend to be big eaters, by the way. Right. They’re still going to be out there.
00:11:35:00 – 00:11:52:22
Speaker 2
So I think what they really want to do is get people’s attention. Now, all of that being said, I think that’s one of the big discussion points here is is that when people go to Buffalo County, Wisconsin, to hunt and it is a huge destination from nonresidents, they’re going there to shoot a buck.
00:11:52:22 – 00:12:13:04
Speaker 2
And what’s happening is they’re outfitters, people that at leaseholders and so on, they’re not taking enough those off the property. So let’s let’s have a realistic conversation about how do we get more doze off the property. Maybe it’s an extended winter season, maybe it’s an earlier opportunity that’s focused on youth and seniors.
00:12:13:19 – 00:12:25:14
Speaker 2
Maybe it’s just saying, like, you can take as many animals tags as you want and infill those suckers so that we can turn things that things down. So I’m hopeful that that’s where the conversation ends up leading to.
00:12:26:03 – 00:12:40:20
Speaker 1
Yeah, it’s it’s the thing that stood out to me first was, okay, well, so you’re going to protect half which spray not quite half. And then nobody’s going to come to Wisconsin for the most part to to Deer Hunt this year.
00:12:41:15 – 00:12:49:20
Speaker 1
So yeah. And that and my heart went out to guys who, you know, probably had this some they saved up for for three or four years. They took vacation time in advance at work. So they’re planning on it.
00:12:49:20 – 00:13:05:04
Speaker 1
And then yeah, it just seemed to me to be unfair and I don’t know, it just didn’t sit well with me. And the thing is, I love the CDC, the Citizens Deer Advisory Council model, because this is actually the government of Wisconsin State saying we want your opinion.
00:13:05:04 – 00:13:16:20
Speaker 1
And what I read about it was that they rarely go against the recommendations of the CDC. So, you know, maybe there’s a wink and a nod there and the CDC says, hey, look, we don’t really want this. Yeah, we get it.
00:13:16:20 – 00:13:31:01
Speaker 1
But yeah. Have you are there other states, Nick, or I mean, what do you know about this? This Citizens Deer Advisory Council model? I know in Indiana where we are, it’s been discussed and tried to get going, but to no avail.
00:13:31:22 – 00:13:49:15
Speaker 2
Yeah. So I think just about every state has some form or model of this where they try to get input from the public. It’s not always like Wisconsin where it’s really drilled down by county and these are these are essentially political entities at this point.
00:13:50:11 – 00:14:07:06
Speaker 2
But but I think that I can I can’t really think of states that don’t have some mechanism where they try to get feedback from hunters on on deer management. It’s part of some of it’s really weak. Like I don’t think you can go into a large state, for example, and do a handful of public gatherings and say
00:14:07:06 – 00:14:19:23
Speaker 2
, you went and got input. I don’t think that’s good enough. Right. But I think that I think that for the most part, states are trying to do that. They want to get input. But at the end of the day, it’s the state that is mandated to handle wildlife management.
00:14:19:23 – 00:14:27:09
Speaker 2
And chief among that management is the most popular wildlife that we have in this country, and that’s deer. So, yeah, they have to make the decisions.
00:14:27:20 – 00:14:39:06
Speaker 1
Makes sense. Well, let’s ease into kind of a topic for with it made us think to give you a shout out and that’s TWD And let me preface the whole conversation we’re getting ready to have with a couple of things.
00:14:40:09 – 00:14:56:16
Speaker 1
First of all, there seems to be a clear line of demarcation between the believers and the not believers. And I say, Well, maybe not everybody I think believes and understands and agrees that there is a disease. It’s not a zombie disease, but there is a a disease that is real.
00:14:56:22 – 00:15:18:10
Speaker 1
I think the the the differences of opinion come on, likely the the solution and what that may be. But from the podcast, I’ve watched the videos. That I’ve seen most conversations go one of two ways. How dare they think they can come in here and tell me that I can’t put a salt lake on my property?
00:15:18:19 – 00:15:33:11
Speaker 1
And the other one is just goes into scientific jargon. Neither of which I think addresses most of the hunters in this country who are just logical thinkers and want to know what they should be doing or what they shouldn’t be doing.
00:15:34:07 – 00:15:45:04
Speaker 1
So yeah, what I’d like to do is just kind of have a conversation about what your opinion of, you know, we don’t need to get into the whole prions and how they’re left in the soil. I think most people, if they want to know, they know that.
00:15:45:14 – 00:15:59:16
Speaker 1
But I mean, left unchecked. What’s the you know, what’s it look like? And I’ll be honest with you, Nick, I live in Indiana. It has not affected me one bit. Right. So I honestly, I’m in I’m not I’m not even embarrassed to say it.
00:15:59:20 – 00:16:14:21
Speaker 1
I really haven’t cared up until now. But now there’s enough, you know, buzz about it. We’re like, okay, let’s figure let’s find out. Let’s just, you know, let’s let’s go to India and let’s find out what their position is and, you know, see what we need to do.
00:16:16:20 – 00:16:34:03
Speaker 2
Yeah. Let me just take a deep breath here before I get into, you know, S.W.A.T. is something I’ve said many times in various presentations and meetings that it’s a it’s a monster with many heads. And you might be able to lock one off, but you aren’t going to kill it.
00:16:34:09 – 00:16:47:13
Speaker 2
You’ve got a lot of different things to deal with. So it’s complicated. But let’s to your point, let’s stay away from prions and transmission and all these types of things. And let’s focus on. What it means to hunters, why they should care and what they can do about it.
00:16:47:13 – 00:17:02:11
Speaker 2
And, you know, to your point, it’s not embarrassing at all to say you just don’t know when you have a care that much about it. Because the reality is, even though we’ve got CW and I think 26 states now, Oklahoma just come up with a positive on a deer farm the last week.
00:17:02:11 – 00:17:19:17
Speaker 2
So I think that takes us back to 26. But at any rate, more than half the states in the country in three Canadian provinces have CW. But when you boil down locally where the cases have been found, it doesn’t touch most of the people in those states.
00:17:19:17 – 00:17:36:14
Speaker 2
So, for example, I’m in Pennsylvania and there are a few S.W.A.T. management zones, but if you don’t live near one of those zones, it’s still not really on your radar screen. So you’re in a state in Indiana where they haven’t they haven’t found S.W.A.T. yet.
00:17:36:20 – 00:17:47:18
Speaker 2
So therefore, it’s really not on your radar screen unless unless you were going to go to, let’s say, somewhere, another state, and then you’re going to go over to Ohio and nurse TWD area. You probably pay more attention.
00:17:47:18 – 00:18:01:17
Speaker 2
So that’s one of the challenges is it just doesn’t even though it impacts every single person that loves deer and loved deer hunting, it doesn’t personally touch them yet. So it’s almost like a generalization like, well, do you care about the environment?
00:18:01:18 – 00:18:14:16
Speaker 2
Well, everyone’s going to say, Well, yeah, I care about it. And then someone says, Well, okay, we want you to do these three things, even though it doesn’t actually really affect you, then people are like that. They don’t pay attention anymore, so.
00:18:14:16 – 00:18:30:08
Speaker 2
CW These kind of like that. The other problem with TWD is it’s not a you talked about believers and nonbelievers, right. So it’s really hard. Nobody believes really believes or at least very few people really believe in like the boogeyman.
00:18:30:08 – 00:18:43:05
Speaker 2
Right. Right. You have this underlying fear of it maybe. But nobody really believes that. It’s because they don’t see it. No one’s ever saw it. And that’s another issue with CW, and that it is not a very it’s not a visible disease.
00:18:43:11 – 00:19:00:13
Speaker 2
So you’ll have people who will call, even though they may believe we’ll just for simplification, let’s call them nonbelievers. Okay. You have nonbelievers who will say things like, if it’s such a problem, where are all the dead deer heard it.
00:19:00:21 – 00:19:14:15
Speaker 2
And yeah, and the very difficult answer to that is there are dead deer out there. Number one, how many deer have you walked by that were dead? But you just said, oh, there’s a dead deer. So you didn’t add it to the list of the deer that you’ve seen.
00:19:15:19 – 00:19:34:18
Speaker 2
But the other part of that is, is that TWD kills in a very slow, methodical manner and it doesn’t take out a bunch of deer all at the same time. So we get people that will say things like, well, this is actually the bigger problem, because what happens when deer dove, they all die at the same time
00:19:34:18 – 00:19:46:19
Speaker 2
. They all die on the same stretch of stream. And it stinks to high heaven that people see all these dead deer laying there. And it’s really easy to see why people can they see that and they say that’s a problem.
00:19:47:05 – 00:19:47:15
Speaker 1
Sure.
00:19:48:01 – 00:20:02:10
Speaker 2
You know, and it is a problem. However, the long story of the Ph.D. is that deer recover from it. It isn’t 100% fatal. It kills a lot of deer, but deer also can recover from it, and they can also develop antibodies.
00:20:03:10 – 00:20:17:20
Speaker 2
That’s not the case with S.W.A.T., so you see that it is a slow killer. You don’t have piles of deer and carcasses laying out there and the see it? I got to see it to believe it. CROWD It’s going to be tough to explain to them or get them to understand why it’s such a concern.
00:20:18:04 – 00:20:32:15
Speaker 2
And another concerns, too, are we talk about states reporting this time of year and actually a little bit earlier in the year, states are reporting their harvests from the previous year. And you’ve got states that have TWD that are still breaking harvest records.
00:20:33:13 – 00:20:49:01
Speaker 2
And that’s very confusing to people because you have some and this has been a real challenge for us. You have some who are, I guess, who consider themselves celebrities. I don’t consider anyone that that really hunts and puts a video together as a celebrity necessarily.
00:20:49:02 – 00:21:02:08
Speaker 1
God bless you. I would say that you’ve had this conversation a dozen times. If you go to any of the big trade shows, it’s like this guy or this lady are a celebrity in this room. They walk out of this building and go across the street to a restaurant.
00:21:02:08 – 00:21:09:01
Speaker 1
They have no idea who they are. But, you know, alas, they are celebrities, I guess, in our world. So. I’m sorry. Go ahead.
00:21:09:11 – 00:21:28:04
Speaker 2
No, that’s okay. I mean and I don’t mean to take it that direction other than to say they do. There are some really good filmmakers out there that I think do our sport some really good justice. But however, to say that some of these people that they’re pushing against the CW issue by saying things like this is
00:21:28:04 – 00:21:43:23
Speaker 2
nothing for you to worry about. There are still plenty of deer and York. You shoot most deer before they die of CW and that actually is true. But before you shoot that deer, how long did it walk around with the disease potentially transmitted to other deer?
00:21:44:03 – 00:21:59:23
Speaker 2
So it’s much more complicated than than what some of these people try to lead you to believe. So, for example, every one of us, we are we are predisposed to have biases and to want to believe things that support our notion of things.
00:21:59:23 – 00:22:17:11
Speaker 2
So a good example of this is help. If someone gives you a bad diagnosis, a lot of people will take that information and they don’t believe it. They don’t want to believe it because it’s bad news. You tell a deer hunter that, hey, there’s a disease out there that’s impacting deer.
00:22:17:11 – 00:22:29:22
Speaker 2
We don’t know how to get rid of it. We don’t have anything immediately on the horizon. We think it’s going to stop it. And you might see the day where you can’t deer anymore. Someone’s going to most people are just not going to want to believe it.
00:22:31:02 – 00:22:44:23
Speaker 2
So when you add to that an affinity bias, people that they like going on their TV show or doing a rant on Facebook or wherever saying, Oh, this is nothing to worry about. It’s all made up by the the the quote, idiots at the DNR and all this stuff.
00:22:45:12 – 00:23:04:14
Speaker 2
Then people believe that because it’s the news that they want to hear. They don’t want to hear the hard message. And so we’re in the business of delivering. It is a hard message, but I think we’re trying to deliver accurate information, important information that hunters need to know.
00:23:04:14 – 00:23:19:22
Speaker 2
And also to tell hunters, this doesn’t we’re not telling you that you need to worry about quitting hunting or stop hunting. And in fact, what we’re telling you is hunters are going to be a big part of the solution to this disease, because we need deer shot, we need samples, and we need to be able to monitor
00:23:19:22 – 00:23:32:08
Speaker 2
this thing while the science catches up to it. And we can’t do that without hunters. So don’t hang up your boots and your guns and say, I’m done. You need to ask yourself, what can I do to be a help to this to this situation?
00:23:32:08 – 00:23:45:20
Speaker 2
Because as a hunter and as a conservationist, I have a responsibility to help deal with it, not put your head in the sand and say, number one, it’s fake, we don’t worry about it. Or number two, I just give up and I’m going to go golf ten more times a year, something like that.
00:23:46:19 – 00:23:59:23
Speaker 1
I mean, I feel for the guys that, you know, in the in the northwestern corner of Illinois and the guys in Wisconsin, I do feel for them because I know it’s real to them. They get up and there’s, you know, it’s in.
00:24:00:03 – 00:24:15:18
Speaker 1
And I’ll tell you, a friend of ours asked us or, you know, he said, you know, in Illinois, they had S.W.A.T. was in three counties and then sharpshooters came out or they tried to, you know, eradicate the deer herd, killed like 2200 deer, and now it’s in 13 or 14 counties.
00:24:17:08 – 00:24:26:04
Speaker 1
And that’s another one. That’s a tough that’s a tough question to answer. You know, he said if if if eradicating them works, if their solution works, how is it spreading?
00:24:26:22 – 00:24:38:08
Speaker 2
Yeah. So there’s a couple of points to that. Timing is everything. And so, for example, let’s say you you find it, you find TWD and then you say we need to go in and wipe out a bunch of deer.
00:24:38:15 – 00:24:53:10
Speaker 2
But you don’t realize before you went it was already further spread. And then what you knew then at that point, it’s kind of too late to apply that practice. So there is there is definitely right now the best tool in the toolbox, unfortunately.
00:24:53:19 – 00:25:04:15
Speaker 2
And I say unfortunately, because this is not a popular one with hunters and I get it, the best tool we have in the toolbox right now is to reduce herds in the area where we know it exists, to slow that spread.
00:25:04:15 – 00:25:17:07
Speaker 2
And frankly, what we’re doing, we can’t stop it. But what we can try to do is buy time until we get better science, better research for dealing with it. So when you go into these areas and have to do that, you’ve got a couple of options.
00:25:17:07 – 00:25:29:22
Speaker 2
One is hopefully hunters jump on board and say, okay, this, this sucks. I don’t want to go and kill kill all these deer. But at the same time, I want to make sure that I have deer to hunt in the future and my kids and my grandkids do.
00:25:30:19 – 00:25:42:11
Speaker 2
Hunters can roll up their sleeves and fill a whole bunch of tags and get the samples. And then the less the much less palatable option is that you have to bring in professional sharpshooters to take out a certain number.
00:25:43:03 – 00:25:53:09
Speaker 2
And nobody wants to do that. I can tell you any state that’s ever done it wishes they didn’t have to do that. So that’s where I’m hoping that hunters can step up and be part of the solution here.
00:25:54:05 – 00:26:11:07
Speaker 2
Understanding that just because everyone wants to point to the Wisconsin example where they tried to kill all the deer and it didn’t work. And well, part of the issue is they did not understand that time and they were that unfortunately for Wisconsin, they were the very early guinea pigs of this thing, and they didn’t know the full
00:26:11:07 – 00:26:23:23
Speaker 2
extent to how far the disease had spread. And therefore, it’s likely that that well, I mean, obviously it didn’t work. And a big reason for that not working may have simply just been it was too late. It was already spread too far.
00:26:23:23 – 00:26:38:02
Speaker 2
And you can’t put out these little hotspots that tend to pop up. So it just it’s not fun. And I get it. I’m a deer hunter a lot, 100 year. I’ve got a S.W.A.T. management zone just a short drive away from me here.
00:26:38:02 – 00:26:51:23
Speaker 2
It’s close enough to that to where I do hunt that I’ll get my dear tested and I don’t want to do that. And it stinks. And but at the same time, it’s our responsibility. It’s our responsibility. And the bad news does not get better with time.
00:26:53:00 – 00:26:53:16
Speaker 2
And you can.
00:26:53:16 – 00:26:54:01
Speaker 1
Either.
00:26:54:19 – 00:27:05:06
Speaker 2
Yeah. I mean, you can either face up to it and deal with it and own it like you can with any other problem that you encounter in life. Or you can do the opposite and you can just hope that it goes away.
00:27:05:06 – 00:27:11:01
Speaker 2
And if you think about anything you’ve dealt with in your life, that option rarely is effective.
00:27:11:16 – 00:27:21:14
Speaker 3
I want to go back to something, something you just said. You know, I’m going to make this very clear. I am not a CWG expert. And in fact, part of the dynamic of this podcast is I’m a 33 year old guy.
00:27:21:14 – 00:27:33:21
Speaker 3
I’ve only been hunting for three or four years. So I’m relatively new to this lifestyle and all these things, deer hunting, that is for three or four years. So about a month ago you were at the Water Oceans, a wildlife subcommittee hearing.
00:27:33:21 – 00:27:53:06
Speaker 3
You got a chance to speak. And part of your testimony, if you will, was was not only affecting the deer herd itself, but affecting, you know, more of I guess I’ll just call them a casual hunter, someone who just sees this thing growing, doesn’t know how to deal with it, and just becomes disinterested in the sport itself
00:27:53:20 – 00:28:03:21
Speaker 3
because the epidemic is just too big to deal with and they don’t know where to start. Do you see that leading to a decline in hunters in the long run?
00:28:07:04 – 00:28:27:00
Speaker 2
You know, that’s a that’s a really good question. We know that some people that were about to quit hunting anyway have quit hunting and they say, well, it’s because of TWD. I think that’s a very tiny percentage. I think that people were already on their way out the door for various reasons, and that was just made it
00:28:27:00 – 00:28:39:23
Speaker 2
easier for them to tell people they weren’t going to do it anymore. Right. You know, but that being said, we mentioned Wisconsin. I mean, I’ve gotten emails from people that say we shot seven bucks on our farm this year and they all seven tested positive for TWD.
00:28:41:10 – 00:28:56:14
Speaker 2
I could see why those people would want to say, you know what, I’m getting out of the deer hunting hobby. But at any rate, so S.W.A.T. is not just. It’s not just the deer disease. And this is something I focused on at the congressional hearing.
00:28:56:14 – 00:29:13:21
Speaker 2
And that is that when you look at where the money comes from to manage all wildlife in the country, it really other than state budgets, it comes from two really big places. One of those is funds derived from the Pittman Robertson Act, which is a tax that a lot of people listening might not even realize.
00:29:13:21 – 00:29:33:07
Speaker 2
They pay when they buy a firearm and they buy ammo in certain hunting gear. And it also comes from the sale of licenses. And then when you further further extrapolate that out and you see that 80% of all people who buy a hunting license are pursuing big game, and most of those people are pursuing deer.
00:29:34:10 – 00:29:55:14
Speaker 2
And if you start cutting into the number of people participating in deer hunting. You are, you are directly cutting then funds that go to manage all wildlife. Because a deer, for all intents and purposes deer, are carrying the weight of all wildlife conservation in North America on their backs.
00:29:56:22 – 00:29:59:22
Speaker 1
Yeah. They do drive the bus for sure. I mean, they drive the whole industry.
00:30:00:03 – 00:30:18:19
Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah. So we can’t have this massive, massive loss of hunters and then not expect it to have a really negative impact on even if you’re a bird watcher. CW the effect you. And it affects the management of threatened and endangered species.
00:30:19:18 – 00:30:31:22
Speaker 2
So it’s an everyone issue. But at the same time, again, deer hunters, if you’re listening to this and you’re kind of on the fence, I mean, I just want you to say, you know what, I’m going to stand up and I’m going to be a leader on this deal and I’m going to embrace the fact that deer
00:30:31:22 – 00:30:41:00
Speaker 2
carry the weight and I’m going to embrace the fact that I’m a deer hunter and that I have an opportunity to lead here. And I’m going to do what’s asked of me. I’m not going to be afraid to ask questions.
00:30:41:01 – 00:30:51:19
Speaker 2
That’s okay. But for the most part, I’m going to do what’s asked to me. I’m going to try to do my part. I’m going to convince my friends to do the same. And what is looking like a really scary situation for the future of deer?
00:30:51:21 – 00:30:55:12
Speaker 2
Deer hunting right now might actually turn out to be one of our greatest moments.
00:30:56:18 – 00:31:13:05
Speaker 3
You know, I think it’s I think it’s something where we were talking about it before we started shooting this podcast was it’s hard for a guy to hear bad news, like you said. And if that bad news is basically getting rid of the entire deer population in their area, they don’t they don’t want to hear that because
00:31:13:05 – 00:31:28:13
Speaker 3
that’s their passion. They want to continue to hunt. But I don’t think it’s fair for that same guy to say, well, Ph.D. or as you know, Ted Nugent said, whether it kills more deer than it is, we’re not you know, we’re not talking about the climate.
00:31:28:13 – 00:31:43:22
Speaker 3
We’re not talking about any other diseases. We’re trying to have a conversation about CWG and what it’s doing to deer population. So how do you how do you feel like we can keep on topic and keep not keep the conversation from when you’re having a conversation with someone who you know, has a different opinion from you, how
00:31:43:22 – 00:31:55:20
Speaker 3
do you keep it on TWD and not say, you know, they try to people try to downplay it by saying, well, this is a bigger issue. We’re not talking about that issue. We’re talking about. CW What what advice would you give someone who’s trying to have that conversation with a fellow hunter?
00:31:56:13 – 00:32:18:11
Speaker 2
Yeah, I think part of it is we’re doing a little bit of catch up on the communications game. So we we have a group, the CW, a coalition of non-government, nonprofit, organized conservation organizations. There are scientists, there are people from state wildlife agencies.
00:32:18:11 – 00:32:36:09
Speaker 2
And we have come together and created what we call the CW, the national plan, with communications being a big part of that. And we are now meeting regularly to, number one, make sure that if we’re spending resources, that we’re putting our resources in the places where they have a chance to be the most effective.
00:32:36:17 – 00:32:49:17
Speaker 2
So we can’t have everybody running off with their own message and not staying on the important message. And that’s the one that’s driven by the science and the facts. So we don’t get into conjecture. We only talk about what we know about and what we know to be true.
00:32:50:05 – 00:33:04:20
Speaker 2
And as we become more organized and better at getting this getting this message out, we’ll sensually flood the market with with with the right information. And really, people will some people will still just not want to believe it and they’ll take their own position.
00:33:04:20 – 00:33:22:10
Speaker 2
That’s fine. But there’s a lot of people out there that we never hear from that are just kind of sitting there and paying attention and listening. And we believe that when that information is fully out there and people have it in consumable pieces, it’s going to be really hard to dispute that.
00:33:22:10 – 00:33:37:03
Speaker 2
It’s an issue that needs to be dealt with, and we think that we will have the support of the masses to deal with this thing. So so that’s a I’m not dodging your question, but just to say that we’re working really hard to get the right messages out there.
00:33:37:11 – 00:33:46:13
Speaker 2
But in the meantime, if you have a question, don’t be afraid to pick up the phone and call you can you can contact me at the National Dealer Alliance. If you’re a team member, you can contact those folks.
00:33:46:13 – 00:34:09:02
Speaker 2
As an example, you go to the CW, the Alliance website, and this is this is one of the easiest things you can do. And we continually put this out there, the CW Dash Alliance I’m sorry, CW dash info dot org or just putting Googled CW the alliance and it is the clearinghouse for the most up to date
00:34:09:02 – 00:34:21:19
Speaker 2
and available science and information news articles that you can find on this disease. None of it’s made up. It’s just the facts. And you can read for yourself and you can share it with others, and it’s just a tremendous resource.
00:34:21:19 – 00:34:23:14
Speaker 2
So that’s a really good place to point people.
00:34:24:05 – 00:34:39:14
Speaker 3
You actually didn’t dodged the question at all, by the way. I think that I think that’s a great answer, because what we’re finding is people want to learn things kind of on their own terms. And, you know, getting into a debate, you know, online or whatever it is just doesn’t seem to have much merit and nothing really
00:34:39:14 – 00:34:48:15
Speaker 3
gets done. So, you know, having something like CW, Dash and Vote.org seems like a a great resource for people who really want to are passionate about this and want to learn more about it.
00:34:48:21 – 00:35:02:15
Speaker 1
Yeah, we can put that up for sure on the podcast. I want to take a break because I saw something on TV and I know a lot of people did. This has been a few months ago now, actually, it was during the The Harrisburg Show and it was in, you know, obviously in Pennsylvania.
00:35:03:21 – 00:35:16:01
Speaker 1
But we have a there was a doctor that stood up for the United Sportsmen’s of Pennsylvania and said, hey, we solved it. We figured it out. We’ve got a cure for for CW or at least insinuated that one was very close.
00:35:16:23 – 00:35:30:17
Speaker 1
And I guess I really like to just kind of get your thoughts on that, because to a casual CW person like myself, I see a blip on the screen and like, Oh good, they fixed it, you know? And I know there’s way more to it than that.
00:35:30:17 – 00:35:40:03
Speaker 1
So, I mean, do you, you know, do you have an opinion on what they said? Was that just a little premature or is there there hope there or both?
00:35:40:03 – 00:35:40:14
Speaker 2
All right.
00:35:40:14 – 00:35:43:17
Speaker 1
So or do you want us? Yeah. Or do you want a pass?
00:35:44:05 – 00:36:04:09
Speaker 2
No, I’m not going to pass. I mean, I’m not I’m not afraid of it. And frankly, I don’t care what that guy thinks or what those people think it was. It was a very. Ansible. And inappropriate. Message to put out there in the way they did, it was inappropriate.
00:36:05:23 – 00:36:09:03
Speaker 1
It pisses me off. I mean, it’s honestly it’s just it just.
00:36:09:03 – 00:36:09:18
Speaker 3
Sets us back.
00:36:09:19 – 00:36:11:11
Speaker 1
WHEATLEY Yeah, misguided.
00:36:12:02 – 00:36:27:19
Speaker 2
It sets us back. And this is a group that at least sent me emails when we got started with the deer lions because we didn’t jump in and support some of the things they want. Because I am all for sportsmen being passionate about their issues.
00:36:27:19 – 00:36:42:20
Speaker 2
I’m all for sportsmen not being afraid to question state wildlife agencies. What I am not for is existing for the sole purpose to be an antagonist and to get in the way of issues and to cause problems. And that’s essentially what’s happened with that issue.
00:36:43:00 – 00:37:03:13
Speaker 2
I happened to be at the Southeast Deer Study Group meeting when this came out. That’s one of the biggest meetings of deer experts, researchers, wildlife managers in the country. And everybody’s phones are blown up with this. And the way that video is presented, you stand on the steps of the Capitol, which any one of us can do
00:37:03:13 – 00:37:17:14
Speaker 2
. We could go stand on the Capitol and shoot a video and make it look like some kind of official announcement. And it made a lot of people think that there was an official announcement from the Pennsylvania Game Commission that there was a cure for CW, when, in fact, that is the furthest thing from the truth.
00:37:19:23 – 00:37:35:20
Speaker 2
It’s based on a theory that has not been supported by any other science or any other scientists. And the theory of prions being the cause of CW remains the accepted cause of s.w.o.r.d., and there’s tons of research to support it.
00:37:36:11 – 00:37:56:05
Speaker 2
We had to turn around very quickly and put out an article that basically reiterated that to address that issue. So and then on top of that, you have you had we had other people with the title of doctor in front of their name who were saying things like basically scaring the hell out of people, telling them that
00:37:56:05 – 00:38:01:15
Speaker 2
S.w.o.r.d. is gone. It’s only a matter of time until it infects people. Which is also.
00:38:01:15 – 00:38:03:11
Speaker 3
There’s been no there’s been no cases of that.
00:38:03:19 – 00:38:18:13
Speaker 2
Occurred and no cases of that. So we had to turn around and we had put out another article saying that despite what you may hear, there’s never been a single case of a human being getting s.w.o.r.d.. We’re not telling you that you shouldn’t get your dear test, that we’re not telling you that if you test positive that
00:38:18:13 – 00:38:43:08
Speaker 2
you should eat it. We’re not telling you that. We’re telling you that despite this disease being around for decades and undoubtedly people eating thousands of CW infected deer. There has not been one documented case of someone getting CW or a related type of illness, whether we’re talking about Alzheimer’s or CJD, despite the CDC is looking for it
00:38:43:08 – 00:39:01:01
Speaker 2
. The National Prion Center at Case Western Reserve is looking for these connections and they have not found them. So therefore, to get that, to get there, respond to an interviewer’s question or to be quoted in an article saying something like It’s only a matter of time to me is not helpful.
00:39:01:02 – 00:39:17:17
Speaker 2
Only say what you know, not what you did, not what you think you might know, or what you might think attract might attract funding to you or make you look like you’re important or to get attention. When people do stuff like that to get attention and they use deer and hunting is the way to do that.
00:39:17:17 – 00:39:30:04
Speaker 2
I don’t care if you’re a hunting a hunting celebrity without a TV show or podcast or if you’re a doctor of whatever, or if you’re just a group that doesn’t like your state wildlife agency when you do that nonsense.
00:39:31:15 – 00:39:41:07
Speaker 2
On. The backs of deer and wildlife and conservation. I got a real problem with that and there’s a lot of that going on and it’s not helpful and it needs to stop.
00:39:42:00 – 00:39:50:11
Speaker 1
So in all honesty, that that whole thing was was bogus from the. I mean, you know, I just should let it go right here.
00:39:50:13 – 00:40:08:06
Speaker 2
Here’s what. There’s no. The theory of spiral plasma of bacteria causing CVD is not an accepted. It’s not accepted. And this is by many we work with really the top scientists we talk of from emailing with one while we’re talking.
00:40:08:06 – 00:40:23:21
Speaker 2
As a matter of fact, none of them come close to supporting that idea. And it’s it’s not to to go on. And by the way, if you really watch that press conference, they went on and said they were going to also solve these other human diseases.
00:40:23:23 – 00:40:36:23
Speaker 2
I’m going to go back and watch that. But I think things that the things that all of a sudden this this sportsman’s group is they they found the scientists and they’re going to go and solve this problem that nobody’s been able to solve with these human diseases.
00:40:36:23 – 00:40:43:22
Speaker 2
And by the way, when you listen to the list, that was like the third thing on the list was they were going to start getting the people. Now, what do you think that the first thing you would do?
00:40:44:04 – 00:40:47:08
Speaker 2
Yeah, let’s try to help people. I mean, I love beer. You know.
00:40:47:19 – 00:40:48:18
Speaker 1
That’s a good point.
00:40:49:01 – 00:41:00:19
Speaker 2
I don’t want to discourage enthusiasm, but there are right ways to do things. And I think people who want to do things the right way, they’re collaborative. And none of this was collaborative. It came out of nowhere and I guess it achieved the desired effect.
00:41:00:19 – 00:41:03:21
Speaker 2
And that was they got a lot of clicks and likes and a lot of people are talking about it.
00:41:04:00 – 00:41:16:09
Speaker 1
Yeah, well, it didn’t last very long, though, so. Okay, well, we wrap up. We’ve got a little something that we like to end when we have a guest in studio. We call it the tale of the Tape. So I’ve got six questions I’d like to ask you.
00:41:16:09 – 00:41:21:09
Speaker 1
They’re lighthearted, just, you know, we see where you stand on these very important topics. You ready?
00:41:21:23 – 00:41:22:15
Speaker 2
Yep, I’m ready.
00:41:22:16 – 00:41:24:07
Speaker 1
Preferred tree stand. Snack.
00:41:25:14 – 00:41:27:06
Speaker 2
Oh. Peanut butter and jelly sandwich.
00:41:28:01 – 00:41:29:02
Speaker 1
White bread. Wheat bread.
00:41:30:07 – 00:41:33:10
Speaker 2
I try to do wheat mostly. Yeah, I.
00:41:33:10 – 00:41:37:00
Speaker 1
Try. Try. Face paint, mask or nothing.
00:41:38:15 – 00:41:44:23
Speaker 2
The more. The most fun thing to do is face paint. But it’s also one of the least convenient. So I typically go mask.
00:41:45:04 – 00:42:00:18
Speaker 1
Yeah, I’m a face paint guy. And I think also either nothing, nothing enough and I can’t eat with a mask on. I’m finding stuff to do up there. What’s your favorite state to hunt? And you’ve told me before, you’ve got a secret and I’m not going to blow it.
00:42:00:18 – 00:42:03:17
Speaker 1
But if you tell me. If you say that, I’ll know it. What is it?
00:42:05:00 – 00:42:25:11
Speaker 2
Favorite state. That’s how I always tell people this. If I if I can pick one to do anything with my with my family, regardless of outcome, I could care less. But probably right now, if I was if someone said, you got a chance to get to a boat anywhere, it’s probably going to be Illinois or I really
00:42:25:11 – 00:42:27:03
Speaker 2
love Delaware. I’ve come to love Delaware.
00:42:27:07 – 00:42:33:06
Speaker 1
Yeah, that’s what you told me a couple months ago. I was like, Delaware. And you said, Yeah, man, there’s. There’s big deer run around Delaware.
00:42:33:19 – 00:42:36:06
Speaker 2
Yeah. Yes. Those are the two places.
00:42:36:06 – 00:42:39:14
Speaker 1
What’s what’s the best outdoor TV show you watch regularly?
00:42:41:10 – 00:42:56:16
Speaker 2
There are some. So I love I love Heartland Beau Hunter. Those guys are great. Their friends are great guys. And also most of Bachman’s Winchester deadly passion. Melissa’s a great person. Everything you see on her shows are absolutely real.
00:42:57:09 – 00:43:06:04
Speaker 2
Most of you listening think you could hang with her. I can promise you can’t. She’s the real deal. So those couple stand out for sure.
00:43:07:02 – 00:43:08:14
Speaker 1
Best hunting app on your phone.
00:43:11:23 – 00:43:14:04
Speaker 2
Scott. Look, weather onyx maps.
00:43:15:03 – 00:43:16:23
Speaker 1
Yeah, we’re on and I’m on standby.
00:43:17:13 – 00:43:20:20
Speaker 2
Yeah, they’re all, they’re all really cool to have some options out there.
00:43:20:23 – 00:43:26:15
Speaker 1
Yeah, it is. And last thing is bucket list hunt. What’s your one hunt that you’d do? You do if you could.
00:43:28:06 – 00:43:41:15
Speaker 2
Man. You know, still I bow hunted elk before, but it’s been just kind of bopping around a little bit. So I still want to go to a really good bona fide beau hunt for elk somewhere where I’ve got a chance at it.
00:43:41:16 – 00:43:56:03
Speaker 2
A good animal. So I guess I guess probably that. But at the end of the day, like I say this without, without, without any joke at all, I’m just as happy sitting on a stump waiting for a gray squirrel to come by as anything else.
00:43:56:03 – 00:43:57:03
Speaker 2
I just love being out there.
00:43:57:06 – 00:44:07:01
Speaker 1
Good for you. You said Stump Center earlier. It made me laugh because when I was first learning Deer Hunt, a friend of mine said, This is the resting stop. As we were walking to our tree stand, I was like, What’s that mean?
00:44:07:01 – 00:44:20:14
Speaker 1
He’s like, I just got to stop here and take a rest. So we sat down, smoked a cigaret on a stump, and I’m like, Okay, Nick, why don’t you tell our listeners, our viewers, where they can join the NDIA, how much it costs, which I believe is free?
00:44:21:07 – 00:44:31:14
Speaker 1
I’m mistaken. You’re on your mailing list and and all that kind of stuff. And by the way, you know, the American Hunting Lease Association’s a proud supporter of the NDA. So we are proud to get behind you guys and the work that you’re doing.
00:44:32:19 – 00:44:45:07
Speaker 2
Yeah. And I really appreciate you guys doing that for sure. And that’s why we’re able to offer free memberships. So yeah, thanks for the opportunity to tell people they can find us at. Just go to National Deer Alliance Tor.com or just search.
00:44:45:07 – 00:45:02:06
Speaker 2
Just do a Google search. You’ll find us and you’ll see a very big, bold green button right there that says Join Now won’t cost you a thing. And what we do is every Wednesday at 8 a.m. Eastern Time, you will get our weekly NBA on watch newsletter where we people really describe it as the USA Today of
00:45:02:06 – 00:45:13:03
Speaker 2
Dear News, because we cover your news from all across the country and try to include some fun stuff in there as well. And we also survey our members every single week on all kinds of issues related to beer and deer hunting.
00:45:13:03 – 00:45:26:13
Speaker 2
And people have a lot of fun with that. And also our coffee and beer show is pretty popular too. So that’s available on in video form and also podcast form. And you can find that all on our website or our Facebook page.
00:45:26:21 – 00:45:44:18
Speaker 1
Outstanding. We have the newsletter you get weekly. It’s very well done. A lot of red meat in it, as they say. Yeah. So I enjoy reading it every week. So hey Nick, we appreciate it as always. Just anytime we can get you on or around, it makes things a little brighter and we hope we’ve helped you out
00:45:44:18 – 00:45:57:12
Speaker 1
a little bit and shine some light on CW. Everybody needs any. And for more information on CW, you can follow the links that we’ll put at the bottom of the video. So Amanda, you be safe and we’ll talk to you some time on the trade show.
00:45:57:12 – 00:45:58:04
Speaker 1
I’m sure soon.
00:45:59:02 – 00:46:09:17
Speaker 2
Yeah, I would say thanks again and thank you guys for, you know, you could just be business as usual, but you’re not you’re choosing to do this and to be an outreach mechanism and to talk about tough issues.
00:46:09:17 – 00:46:16:22
Speaker 2
So I appreciate your leadership on that. And then I would just request the next time you have me on, let’s talk about killing beer. Let’s do it.
00:46:17:05 – 00:46:20:10
Speaker 1
All day long. Not a problem, Ryan. Thanks, Nick. Thanks. Take care, buddy.
00:46:20:21 – 00:46:21:09
Speaker 2
Thank you.
00:46:23:00 – 00:46:23:05
Speaker 4
But.
00:46:24:22 – 00:46:29:00
Speaker 1
No. All right. It’s exactly what I thought it would be. God knows his stuff.
00:46:29:00 – 00:46:29:12
Speaker 3
He does?
00:46:29:13 – 00:46:41:18
Speaker 1
Yeah. So fantastic. We’re lucky we know him. He’s one of those guys that you just kind of we’ve we’ve met with Sportsmen’s Alliance and then, you know, he becomes CEO and president of India and and then Sean Curran from the Sportsman’s Alliance.
00:46:41:18 – 00:46:53:09
Speaker 1
Now he’s moved on and he’s with the Ruffed Grouse Society. So, yeah, it’s just it’s really cool meeting people like that that are passionate like we are and have gone on to different leadership roles.
00:46:54:14 – 00:46:57:17
Speaker 3
It also helps to get people who are way more knowledgeable than I am on topics.
00:46:57:20 – 00:47:08:15
Speaker 1
It does help. Hey, you know what is CW was here I’d I’d be waving the CWG flag like crazy. I just. I don’t, you know, I just haven’t.
00:47:08:16 – 00:47:23:08
Speaker 3
Yeah, I know. And it’s tricky, too, because I think part of part of the CWG awareness initiative that that guys like Nick are trying to put on is it’s it’s going to be here is essentially what he’s saying.
00:47:24:09 – 00:47:38:00
Speaker 3
You know, there’s there’s certain facts that you just can’t argue. You know, 20 years ago it was in one state, it’s in 26 now. Um, it, it’s not hard to think that here in a couple of years it could be affecting Indiana.
00:47:38:00 – 00:47:46:03
Speaker 3
It’s not unreasonable to think that. And, you know, at least I just don’t like I said, I don’t know a lot about the subject and that’s why we have guys like Nick on so we can talk to him.
00:47:46:03 – 00:47:57:01
Speaker 3
But, you know, it just seems like there are certain things you just can’t argue that are just fact based. Like we talked about, the guy who did the said they found the cure and he did it on the steps of the of the capital.
00:47:57:01 – 00:48:01:21
Speaker 1
Or whatever it was. Nick hit that on. It had it looked official to me. Yeah. Honestly, I mean it was, it.
00:48:01:21 – 00:48:13:11
Speaker 3
Was 100% it looked official. But when you start arguing things like what causes TWD, those are those are just kind of based in fact. And it’s hard to argue those because there are different variations. There’s a human variation.
00:48:13:11 – 00:48:30:12
Speaker 3
There’s a sheet variation that’s been around for hundreds of years. There’s a bovine variation. It’s all the same kind of protein and there’s just different variations of it. So so for someone to come out and just egregiously make an inflammatory comment like, Yeah, we found the cure and this is actually what causes it, you know, it really
00:48:30:12 – 00:48:33:00
Speaker 3
is harmful to progressing towards a solution.
00:48:33:02 – 00:48:42:23
Speaker 1
Like I even had a plan on how they were going to administer it to deer over a five and ten, I think, 20 year period. So, you know, one of the things that we just, you know, you just run out of time with a guy like Nick.
00:48:42:23 – 00:48:56:07
Speaker 1
His time is valuable. I should have gone all day, but I know, like, you know, see, the buddy can be passed is transmittable transmissible. So it can be passed through urine, saliva and feces and all those type of things.
00:48:56:15 – 00:49:12:05
Speaker 1
So I know I think it’s the state of Virginia might be West Virginia. I apologize if I’m wrong. Good call is. They have banned the sale of urine in that state. Yeah, well, I think it’s Virginia. You can’t sell their urine.
00:49:13:02 – 00:49:28:02
Speaker 1
That to me seems plausible if we don’t know. And that that could cause it. Well, then why not baiting? And then I’m not saying they should, but, you know, baiting deer. It’s legal in Ohio. Kentucky, I believe. Michigan, but I’m not sure.
00:49:28:21 – 00:49:50:20
Speaker 1
Mineral lakes, urine. There’s so much of this stuff and it’s all industry, you know, it’s all commerce. Are they willing to say, hey, it’s not just the hunters that need to step up and do their part, but the private deer farms, right where allegedly the original cases were private, you know, deer from private deer farms that escaped
00:49:51:04 – 00:49:51:15
Speaker 3
. You know.
00:49:51:22 – 00:49:53:04
Speaker 1
And somebody should pay for that.
00:49:53:05 – 00:50:08:19
Speaker 3
It extends further than that. Also, because I’ve seen certain scientists talk about when a deer urinates on a plant, for example, and they have it not it’s not just them urinate on the plant. It actually that’s IWD that that protein makes a chemical bond to the plant itself.
00:50:09:06 – 00:50:20:15
Speaker 3
You start talking about agriculture and and moving, you know, product, you know, across state lines or whatever it is. These people are basically saying it’s not unreasonable to think if it’s not in your state, it’ll be there soon.
00:50:20:15 – 00:50:21:15
Speaker 3
If it’s not already.
00:50:22:09 – 00:50:35:01
Speaker 1
That’s been could already be here. They just haven’t, you know, tested the right deer. Sure. The other question I wanted to ask Nick and I might send me an email is how if I am within a S.W.A.T. management zone, what’s is there a number?
00:50:35:04 – 00:50:43:01
Speaker 1
If you’re within ten miles, 20 miles, and you harvest the deer, should you get it tested, win show you tested. I mean, obviously in Indiana, we don’t have any reason to get our deer tested.
00:50:43:01 – 00:50:50:04
Speaker 3
Right. My question would be, you know, being new to deer hunting now, see, how do I get a deer? Some guys wouldn’t even know how to get the deer tested.
00:50:50:08 – 00:50:50:16
Speaker 1
Yeah.
00:50:51:01 – 00:50:52:07
Speaker 3
I kill his deer and I’m just looking.
00:50:52:07 – 00:51:01:05
Speaker 1
I know you got to take it to a biologist and they have to take brain samples. I know that there you know, there is no test for a live deer for CWG.
00:51:01:18 – 00:51:22:03
Speaker 3
So man, it’s a big, complicated topic. And I think part of the reason, you know, it gets disputed so heavily is because there’s not the answers haven’t been found yet. That’s just the fact of the matter. But there are guys like Nick and organizations like His that are trying to figure out answers to why this is and
00:51:22:03 – 00:51:34:06
Speaker 3
how it is so they can come up with solutions on how to how to fix it. You know, and I think it’s I think it’s an important conversation to keep have. And I’d love to have someone on who is maybe a conspiracy theorist or a nonbelievers, as we call them.
00:51:34:20 – 00:51:36:10
Speaker 3
I think we know I think we know a couple.
00:51:36:10 – 00:51:47:23
Speaker 1
Yeah, we know a couple. So I mean, obviously, it’s important topic because we didn’t even talk about the fact that I doubled up on turkeys yesterday with my son in law. Nice. Great story. But no no. We’ll we’ll talk to day.
00:51:47:23 – 00:51:50:16
Speaker 3
And I think we’ll do more episodes so we can get to a.
00:51:51:04 – 00:51:51:16
Speaker 1
Fair enough.
00:51:51:16 – 00:51:55:00
Speaker 3
Man. Well, we can end on a little bit lighter note. I think Bobby’s got some something lined up.
00:51:55:00 – 00:51:56:12
Speaker 1
Producer Bobby, what have you got?
00:51:56:13 – 00:52:00:05
Speaker 4
I’m back with a with a new game for you guys. This one we.
00:52:00:05 – 00:52:01:08
Speaker 1
Have on the big screen. Yes.
00:52:01:14 – 00:52:13:10
Speaker 4
Well, it doesn’t include any any pictures or no imagery. So this is all going to be audio. This is a little game I call turkey call or human. I’ve got some sound bites for you guys and I want you to figure out.
00:52:13:22 – 00:52:15:17
Speaker 3
All right, here, you know how I’m going to do.
00:52:16:02 – 00:52:20:21
Speaker 4
Decide if they’re made by a turkey, okay. A turkey call or a human, so.
00:52:21:02 – 00:52:22:02
Speaker 1
Long as we don’t have to make them.
00:52:24:16 – 00:52:25:03
Speaker 4
All right.
00:52:31:20 – 00:52:32:09
Speaker 1
Focus.
00:52:36:00 – 00:52:38:10
Speaker 3
All this is the technical difficulty part. Here we go.
00:52:40:12 – 00:52:45:21
Speaker 1
Well, that’s human.
00:52:45:21 – 00:52:47:00
Speaker 3
Life. Doesn’t say human. Yeah.
00:52:48:08 – 00:52:51:19
Speaker 1
Was it? I can tell by the hands. It was a very clearly human hands.
00:52:53:20 – 00:52:54:21
Speaker 4
Yes. That one with you.
00:52:55:05 – 00:52:55:22
Speaker 1
Gave it away.
00:52:57:00 – 00:53:01:07
Speaker 4
All right. Here we go. Here’s number two.
00:53:08:01 – 00:53:08:17
Speaker 1
That’s a turkey.
00:53:08:21 – 00:53:11:08
Speaker 3
I’d say that’s a that’s a call.
00:53:12:10 – 00:53:16:03
Speaker 4
Sean’s right on that one, though. That was an actual turkey. Okay. All right.
00:53:23:18 – 00:53:24:12
Speaker 1
That’s my uncle.
00:53:27:09 – 00:53:29:04
Speaker 3
Sounds like something I would do, honestly.
00:53:29:22 – 00:53:31:00
Speaker 1
I’m going to say person.
00:53:31:03 – 00:53:40:05
Speaker 4
Yeah. Okay. Yeah, that’s correct. That was. At number four.
00:53:42:17 – 00:53:44:15
Speaker 3
That’s a that’s a call, isn’t it.
00:53:45:12 – 00:53:47:03
Speaker 1
No, that’s a hand. That’s a turkey.
00:53:47:09 – 00:53:47:19
Speaker 3
Nod.
00:53:47:19 – 00:53:48:11
Speaker 1
Could be a call.
00:53:48:11 – 00:53:50:01
Speaker 3
I think it’s a call. I must say. Call.
00:53:50:12 – 00:53:52:01
Speaker 4
All right, George. Right on that. Yes.
00:53:52:11 – 00:53:54:04
Speaker 1
That’s a good one. It must be a JT Tickle.
00:53:54:05 – 00:53:59:00
Speaker 3
That’s right. Did. Speaking of which.
00:54:01:07 – 00:54:02:17
Speaker 1
Well, that’s that’s a.
00:54:02:17 – 00:54:04:03
Speaker 4
Call on Thursday. Yes.
00:54:04:03 – 00:54:16:12
Speaker 3
That one speed away. It’s Jake has a tutorial video on how to use a mouth call. And it is I was watching it and I told you this. I think I could I could practice that. I feel like I could be good at a mouth call.
00:54:16:13 – 00:54:17:12
Speaker 1
Yeah, well, that.
00:54:17:12 – 00:54:19:16
Speaker 4
Last one was a mouth call, was it? Yeah.
00:54:20:11 – 00:54:32:09
Speaker 1
My. My son in law, Chad, he. He was calling. I can’t. We’re we’re in the truck, you know, we’re in the truck. He started Balloon Goose call and duck call. And I was like, oh, my gosh, hopefully this isn’t going to last for a two hour drive.
00:54:33:02 – 00:54:43:03
Speaker 1
But it didn’t. Then in the in the blind yesterday, he puts a my mouth call in and I just kind of like, What are you doing? And he was like, Oh, don’t worry, I’m not using it. Okay, good.
00:54:43:09 – 00:54:45:07
Speaker 1
They’re hard. Yeah, that’s all Jake uses.
00:54:45:19 – 00:54:46:11
Speaker 3
It’s impressive.
00:54:46:13 – 00:54:48:11
Speaker 1
Yeah, it is. It is. And Chad can’t do it.
00:54:49:02 – 00:54:53:22
Speaker 4
All right, this one will be the tiebreaker, since you both have, uh, well, one point over.
00:54:54:02 – 00:54:56:07
Speaker 1
Oh, I didn’t know where. Yeah, I.
00:54:56:07 – 00:54:57:15
Speaker 3
Didn’t know the competition either.
00:54:57:18 – 00:55:00:09
Speaker 4
All right, all right, all right. Ready? Yeah, the last one.
00:55:06:11 – 00:55:07:21
Speaker 3
30 humans.
00:55:09:00 – 00:55:11:10
Speaker 4
Got different. That’ll go to Sean.
00:55:11:10 – 00:55:19:04
Speaker 3
And I was just I couldn’t say I couldn’t end on a tie. So I had to I had to throw out the Hail Mary. There was two or three there. I thought it was just really talented. Like one of those kids.
00:55:19:04 – 00:55:22:06
Speaker 3
You see it in WTF doing like the live calls or something. Yeah.
00:55:23:01 – 00:55:35:04
Speaker 1
So cool. All right, I’ll take that one. All right. Good deal. All right, we until next week. Next week, we’ll try and have some an opposing TWD viewpoint, but if not, we’ll have some fun. Interesting. Talk about it later.
00:55:35:04 – 00:55:56:10
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
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00:56:51:20 – 00:57:01:05
Speaker 1
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00:57:01:10 – 00:57:04:20
Speaker 1
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